Daniel Freedman and CROM embark on ‘Birdking’ volume three

The best fantasy tales are, at their core, about friendship and community. Why else would Sam follow Frodo to actual hell?

But it’s not just the characters seeking kinship; it’s the creators who are also transformed by the experience. That’s doubly true for CROM and Daniel Freedman, who have spent the last half-decade-ish crafting their Birdking series.

“I think we’ve kind of found our groove actually,” said Freedman during a Zoom call this past August. “I think we’ve always had a pretty smooth collaboration, but I think with Birdking, we’ve been working on it for about four years. Even before Birdking, we were working on Raiders together. And throughout the years, we’ve learned to give each other enough space. So our process is…enhanced by each other’s input and output.”

Of their dynamic, CROM added, “I think time just flies by.”

And this whole process — creator and character going on respective journeys — has clearly informed the shape and scope of Birdking over its first two volumes.

Volume one saw Bianca, a young blacksmith apprentice, meet the titular Birdking, a deceased warrior-king, before the two began their trek toward Atlas, a fabled city on a hill. This first leg wasn’t just about dark fantasy lore and smashing bad guys, but exploring ideas of home, change, and the pair’s “ancestral connection.”

In volume two, the pair make their way to Hinnom, the “birthplace of a dead dark empire and the battlefield in the war between the kingdoms of the North and South.” And amid that mountainous hellscape, Bianca and Birdking extended their bond as they made new friends and enemies alike and grew the book’s core thematic interests.

Now, the journey continues with volume three. The solicitations mention that, after “losing” Birdking and experiencing other life-defining woes, Bianca finally makes it Atlas. Only this chapter will offer far less celebration and much more soul-searching for our plucky young hero.

“For me, volume three represents a huge turning point for Bianca,” said Freedman. “I think this is the point in the story where she comes into her own, for lack of a better term, and finds her own agency. Volume three represents a real big pivot for her; it’s a big turning point for the character.”

CROM agreed with his collaborators’ assessment, but went further still: it’s about a kind of realignment, as it were.

“Volume three is the encounter [between] expectations and reality for Bianca, where she’s been building up to this idea of what salvation means and what good and evil means to her,” said CROM. “But I think reality clashes with what she had in mind for this volume, and it’s that shock to her and then realizing what’s what and how to deal with.”

And just like with the other two Birdking volumes, this third offering is grounded in real experiences and emotional arcs. Bianca is very much alive, and like any one her age, all of this strife and hardship is about development and growth.

“Especially when we’re growing up, we have a rough plan of what we want in life,” said Freedman. “And that plan usually meets reality and reality makes us adaptable to situations. That’s growing up in general. I think, ultimately, it’s a coming-of-age story. So it’s been a long journey for her to get to this point, but she had to go through everything she’s gone through to get to this point and have all her illusions shattered and all her hopes and dreams crushed and realize that the only thing she can do is do it herself and take that responsibility.”

But it’s not only Bianca that will undergo some important growth in Birdking volume three. If you’ve read the first two books, you may have taken a shining to Jung, the unlucky messenger who has since become a kind of companion to Bianca and company.

“When Daniel introduced Jung to me, he was supposed to be a messenger guy that shows up for a little bit,” said CROM. “And I think as the story developed, and as Daniel worked on it a bit more, he kind of wiggled himself into the story a bit more and more.”

In fact, he was never meant to even make it out of Birdking book one.

“In the outlines, he died in that first volume; he was killed with everybody else,” said Freedman. “And then I realized once we got into the actual scripting of the story, I needed someone to go back and report what happened with the great sword, the flame that they steal. And so I was like, ‘Oh, well, Jung will go back and deliver the message.’ And so he just kind of kept staying alive. And it’s interesting because he was the one thing that was never intended or part of the outline.”

But since he’s still alive and flailing about, he too will get a chance to move into the next phase of his journey, and show nearly as much value/significance as Bianca.

“He is, in a lot of ways, the most organic character because he was never part of the outline,” said Freedman. “He just happened to always be there and in the right place, right time, or maybe wrong place, wrong time. But he’s been as exciting and surprising, I think, to us as to the readers because, again, he was never intended to stick around. And he’s managed to survive this long and grow and maybe even become friends with Bianca after all that they’ve gone through. So there is more to come between them. It’s been really satisfying and just surprising to see him come as far as he has and to grow as much as he has as well.”

But since this book is called Birdking, our hero with a flaming skull and massive sword also gets an opportunity to grow and extend. But that process isn’t quite so direct, especially since Birdking is mostly the stoic type.

“We talked a lot about Birdking’s backstory and where he comes from and who he is and all of these various aspects of his past and how he got to where he is now,” said Freedman. “And somewhat similarly to Jung, he’s long for the journey and has, I think, surprised us in what he’s revealed along the way as well. It’s interesting because he has a story to tell but he can’t speak. So, working with static images versus something like animation, he’s having to find ways to express himself through gestures and context, and it’s been really fun. It’s always exciting to see how animated and communicative he is for not even having a face, per se.”

In fact, the very design of Birdking facilitates an experience or reaction that’s a little more unexpected and multifaceted than what you’d expect from a giant armored skeleton.

“When I started drawing Birdking without a story, just as a standalone character, people made comments about him as to how sweet or how cute he looks,” said CROM. “And at the same time, he’s this big figure of this skeleton with fire on his head. It’s that duality of what he represents and how everyone has a different view of what he represents as a character without knowing anything about him. So I think that plays a big part into why he doesn’t speak and why he doesn’t say anything. You don’t know much about him because he creates this space where you make assumptions about him and that makes it a bit more special, I think.”

But Freedman and CROM have leaned into that across Birdking volumes two and three — that uncertainty by readers, as it were, makes them even more emotionally interested or just deeply invested. And when it comes to Birdking volume three, the more you’re connected to these characters, the more you’ll likely gain from their continued development.

“I think CROM does such an amazing job at making him emote,” said Freedman. “And I guess I’m trying to dance around things a little bit because there’s aspects of Birdking’s story that we want to keep ambiguous and let the reader bring something to it themselves. But as far as his connection and relationship with Bianca, that is certainly growing now that they have effectively saved both each other in multiple ways and across multiple times. A bond is forming between them that goes beyond what we call their ancestral connection.

Freedman added, “That even extends into the story. Not only how Bianca and Amelia and Jung react to him, but also the army of the dark and everyone else. I mean, everyone has their own feelings and opinions and interpretations and assumptions about Birdking. And we wanted to make that part of the story within the world. And so we tried to play with that as well.”

Perhaps the biggest moment in Birdking volume three for the pair’s relationship comes via a new sword. Without spoiling too much, Bianca’s deliberately crafted a new weapon for Birdking as a way to demonstrate exactly where their relationship rests at this specific moment in time.

“I think up to the point where Bianca makes a new sword for Birdking, he’s been using a sword that belongs to a wraith,” said CROM. “And through volume one, you hear about all these great weapons given by Aghul to all these wraiths. So I think it does make a point of how, after this point, he stops being that image of a wraith and is now given a weapon built by someone who loves him and built by someone who believes in who he is now as this present character.”

Added Freedman, “What I can tell you is that it’s Birdking’s actual sword as opposed to using someone else’s sword. The sword that Bianca makes for him in this volume was the original sword that CROM designed for him. And when we started working on volume one and developing the story, we realized there was going to be a different sword that woke him up. And so finally getting to ‘his sword’ has been a long time coming.”

But it’s more than a nice gesture or correcting some record; the sword very much represents a kind of warmth and openness that hasn’t always been easy on this harrowing journey.

“But in terms of the relationship, I think it’s more about their bond growing within them within that moment,” said Freedman. “The growth of their connection isn’t necessarily based on whatever has gone on in their backstories, or what’s happened before this. But I think that they’re actually growing closer, and Bianca making him that sword is a gesture of love in that way and friendship and everything else. And so I think it is an important moment. It’s a bonding moment for them, but I would say it’s more about them growing together on the journey than it representing or revealing something about their pasts.”

But it’s not just characters that are growing and changing — the world of Birdking is also evolving in a way. As mentioned, the group finally make it to the famed Atlas, which they hope is going to be the start of new fortune and luck in their quest. But as we quickly find out, it’s not exactly the promised land.

“You’re on the nose with it — Atlas has a design of ‘not everything that’s gold shines,’” said CROM. “When Daniel explained a lot of the characters and dynamics within Atlas, it was kind of quite clear to see how everyone should look. We’re in a very basic point of view from a fantasy book. You will look at them as good guys, all dressed in white with gold, all these heroic flags and Templar-looking helmets. And that’s just the face of it; you don’t know what’s underneath it.”

Yet like so much of the rest of this volume, that decision also went through its own development arc.

“It’s interesting because everything in the story, it’s grown and developed as we’ve gotten to it,” said Freedman. “I forget what the human factions are called in Warcraft, but very much paladins and lots of blue and white. As we develop the world, and actually get to Atlas, a lot of that changed. I don’t think anything’s ever perfect or inherently all good. I mean, there’s always a shadow side or a dark side or some kind of rotten core — what we try to do with Atlas, on the outside, is this giant magnificent tower and kingdom that they built. It looks like a gleaming, golden city. But ultimately the entire interior of Atlas is a dungeon that is used to punish and to force everyone into compliance.”

On the one hand, that aspect has a pretty direct function, as Freedman said, “We’re trying to draw parallels between a ghoul Aghul and the All Father while having them be opposites. I think it’s in terms of authoritarian leaders: they may look different, but ultimately they’re cut from the same clock.”

But it’s not just about good versus evil; it’s also that we often can’t see either side as we get lost in the imagery and the perceptions of it all.

“So I think those ideas of being oppositional against the dark army — that creates this inherent image of light, but light doesn’t necessarily mean good,” said Freedman. “And I think that’s been fun to play with. They generate their own light through what’s essentially electricity. And so just trying to take that notion of light and dark and spin it. Again, light doesn’t represent good, it just represents literal light, lightning. And it is magnificent to behold what they’ve built, albeit how they built it is not something to be proud of — it was built on the backs of a lot of other people in pain and suffering. But there’s a lot of humanity in the dark army as well. So it’s not that either side is good and the other side is bad. It’s that ultimately they’re both a lot more similar than you would expect in the beginning.”

At the same time, the creators want to both extend that overarching notion of duality as well as inject notions/ideas to make people dig deeper into right and wrong, just and evil, etc.

“They [Atlas] see themselves as a cleansing force in the world, which means they view others as being dirty and beneath them,” said Freedman. “And so this whole notion of being the hero who’s going to cleanse the world means you’ve got to kill a lot of other people. I think that there’s an inherent schism or duality.”

There’s even a real world parallel at work.

“Also, the idea is that the All Father is the fourth in the line of a bunch of other successions, where it’s kind of like North Korea and Kim Jong-un,” said Freedman. “Like, he’s been brought up in this kingdom and raised to be the All Father, and so as far as he’s concerned, he’s totally righteous and right and correct in his duty. He sees himself as being the patriarch of this kingdom and caring for them the way a father would, albeit with some questionable methods. But, to your point, he sees himself as a good guy. I mean, he’s the hero. He’s God in some ways.”

It’s also worth revisiting those aforementioned concepts of light and energy. Again, without revealing too much, Bianca’s immersion into Atlas is another moment where, as she thinks she’s making some grand transformation, the truth’s a bit more complicated.

“Bianca has, sort of, forgotten who she really is and is too eager to join the other side in hopes of it saving her,” said Freedman. “And at the same time, the entire contraption that they are standing under for the vow is essentially a circuit, and so that’s why you have to touch it. We never wanted this to say it out loud, but I don’t think anyone else in the audience at the coronation is aware of how the circuit works. But she still falls under the illusion of the light it creates — even though she has an inherent understanding of how this thing works, she doesn’t really understand what it represents yet.”

Freedman added, “You’d think that everyone in Atlas at some point has taken this vow and they’ve stood under this and created light. And so everyone is under the notion that they’re special because they have light inside them and that’s been revealed by this machine when it’s just a simple circuit that no one understands. Because in that way, Atlas is all about manmade magic; they made their own magic.”

But, in case you’re already concerned for Bianca’s fate, just know that it mostly turns out OK. But you’ll have to pay attention if you really want to figure that out for yourself.

“For me, it was quite difficult to draw Bianca changing as she tries to fit into Atlas,” said CROM. “She’s very eager to be part of this whole thing and seeing the way she changes, forgetting about her mates, forgetting about who she is. When I read the book and I see the main character going down a path that I don’t like, it’s usually kind of disappointing. The moment that she regains this idea of who she is and she kind of collects herself and stands up to the All Father, I think that was quite crucial for me. And I was quite excited to draw that page where she’s finally dressed up the way she used to dress up. She’s braiding her hair again, and I thought it was quite symbolic. I thought it was quite a really cool frame to have in that page.”

And that last quote really picks up on a vital aspect of the entire Birdking saga: it’s not just about the growth of the people and the world, but of anyone who happens to read it. Freedman and CROM are both massively interested in trying to challenge readers. And the way that happens most often in Birdking is how much they choose to tell or to keep from the audience.

“As the creators of this, we’ve talked about every aspect of the world and the backstories and every character,” said Freedman. “And so we inherently know more than the reader will ever know. It’s always so tricky to figure out how much to reveal and how much to hold your cards. I think we’re just going on instinct, and what feels right. There’s certain things that you need to know in order to understand what’s happening in the narrative…This story is so centered, or seen, through the perspective of Bianca. And Bianca at times has access to information, whether it’s library in Atlas or books that she was able to find beforehand.”

To some extent, the setting and story actually help with this process.

“She [Bianca] doesn’t have an iPhone and Google, and so she’s very limited in what she can know,” said Freedman. “That helps keep some of the guard rails up, or define what’s appropriate to reveal and what’s to be kept secret.”

However, being a dark fantasy also means that they have to grapple with certain tendencies among their readership.

“There’s some readers, I’ve heard this phrase used, that are intolerant to ambiguity,” said Freedman. “I read a ton of fantasy; I’ve been reading fantasy novels my whole life. And what I always enjoy is the journey of finding little bits of information and putting things together. I hate when a book just dumps a hundred pages of exposition on you — like, there’s 150 different names and 75 different kingdoms. I don’t even know what to make sense of. I don’t have any connection to anything.”

Perhaps that’s why both creators lean into not only fantasy stories, but a certain kind of video game to help facilitate their “not too much but enough” approach to storytelling.

“CROM and I are both heavily inspired by the Dark Souls games and the From Software games,” said Freedman. “And one of the things I’ve taken away from those games is, and this is something we talked about when we started working on Birdking, is the ambiguity and environmental storytelling. And so there’s a lot more answers in the images and in the environments that you might realize. And they may not ever be spelled out, but I think once the whole story is told and a reader is able to go back to the beginning and look at the whole book, there’ll be a lot more revealed in the environments than you would think.

Added CROM, “When I draw characters, I like to add clues to who they are and what they’ve been through before. This idea of telling you a lot about them without saying anything, I kind of like to play with that. And working with Daniel, he understands that very well. And when we got our ideas together from things like Dark Souls, where you can play the whole game not knowing anything about the lore and you can still play through the main line.”

Still, it’s not a direct translation but rather another tool for the Birdking team to utilize. It’s ultimately about challenging readers so they get an even better experience than if they eventually knew everything about Birdking at-large.

“I was just always fascinated by that idea of reading something and not understanding everything and having to make up some of your own answers or try to put things together,” said Freedman. “And that’s exactly how [the From] games work, where you get all these little bits of lore and information through item descriptions and, and you really have to work to put the story together. I don’t think we want to make the readers work that hard, but it was an inspiration for us because that just creates an engagement with the reader.”

Freedman continued, noting that it’s about a specific kind of engagement.

“I want people to lean in instead of lean back and let everything just wash over them,” said Freedman. “I’d rather them lean in and actually have to try to pick things apart and actually look at the images and then take some time with the story. And so it’s almost the more you put in, the more you get out of it type of thing. But also delivering enough information that the casual reader can still follow the story and hopefully be moved by it as well as the dedicated readers.”

Added CROM, “But there are people who really want to know every single thing about every item and every character, and I like that little balance of information where you can choose what to do with it. I think we’re trying to hit that balance and try to do that in every panel, where we drop hints of things and with imagery and we try and work out clues for those readers who want to find out more about the world that the characters are living in.”

Perhaps this whole idea of how much to know (or not know) isn’t just vital for volume three, which is very much a deeper dive across the board. No, it’s also because the story’s not done after this volume, and the pair are already hard at work on volume four.

“From the very beginning of talking about Birdking, we always talked about it as a one complete story,” said Freedman. “So we originally planned to do three volumes that would eventually then be collected into one full graphic novel that would tell the entire story. Those three volumes have now expanded into four. So I could tell you right now, it’s going to be a 500-page book once it’s all said and done. We just broke it up into trades so that we could release something and didn’t have to make people wait for five years to read the whole thing.”

So, then, what will Birdking volume four eventually be about? The creators are mostly tight-lipped, but they did let slide some juicy tidbits.

“I’ll just say that volume four is the return home and the confronting of all of the problems that made [Bianca] run away in the first place,” said Freedman. “So, in a lot of ways, volumes one through three are all just the preamble to Bianca’s real personal confrontations.”

Added CROM, “I’d say volume three was a preparation for volume four in the sense that Bianca is breaking the myths that she had in her head about [certain] figures. I feel like volume four is breaking the biggest myth of all, and that’s all I’m going to say about that.”

But Birdking volume four is still a ways away, so maybe it’s better to keep that flame burning for the future. Because, as much as Birdking volume three is about new ideas and horizons and all that, it’s also about something very simple but profound. That before this journey’s over (and that means for everyone, fictional or otherwise), there’s one big obstacle to overcome or slice of personal development to achieve. And it’ll make that whole One Ring thing look pale in comparison.

“Toward the end [of volume three], when they’re making their escape, Bianca has this moment where she says ‘No more running, it’s time to turn and fight.’ And for 300 pages, Bianca has done mostly nothing but run away,” said Freedman. “For me, that represents that this [volume] is a big turn. It’s a literal turning point for a character to come into her own and to take that responsibility and claim her agency and to no longer run, but to turn and fight.”

Birdking volume three is available December 4 from Dark Horse Comics.