‘The Dragon Prince’ creators dish on season 5 post-mortem

Season five of The Dragon Prince dropped a week early, thanks to “pirates” who hijacked the Comic-Con panel in San Diego. In a word, it’s breathtaking. It opened up corners of Xadia that we haven’t seen, it  introduced us to many characters who will be factoring into the bigger story at hand, and every episode was filled with something fans can talk about.

There is certainly plenty to chew on while we wait for the next installment. AIPT TV did just that, when Ernie Estrella spoke with The Dragon Prince co-creators Aaron Ehasz, Justin Richmond and director/executive producer Villads Spangsberg to go over some of season five’s biggest and most significant moments and what they mean moving into seasons six and seven.

**Warning, there are severe spoilers about The Dragon Prince Season 5: Ocean. Do not read further until you’ve caught up and binged the entire season, which is now available on Netflix.**

AIPT: We only got a taste of K’ppar, who is Viren’s teacher/mentor. He seems like a more important player moving forward. 

Aaron Ehasz: K’ppar is his mentor, we’ve talked a lot about him but this is the first tease of him in more than one way. We see a little bit about his fate, and hints about his role in Viren’s psyche and trauma. There are clues in his design to some of what he went through that we’ll get more into in seasons six and seven. But for now you’ll see this complicated mentor figure who has some emotional conflict with Viren.

AIPT: My ears perked up when I started hearing elves speaking backwards, but then I rubbernecked at the black and white zig-zags on the floor. What inspired this Twin Peaks tribute/reference?

AE: What a groundbreaking show, it did storytelling and television in a way that had never been before. So it’s an inspiring show. The hope is that a scene like that plays to someone who doesn’t know Twin Peaks, because this is weird, odd and distorted. But we planted a very intentional homage to something that influenced us and our approach to storytelling a lot.  

Villads Spangsberg: I love reading Aaron and Justin’s scripts and when you come across something like that you have to stop and say, ‘what did I just read?’ Then when you start leaning into it, you realize it’s a great homage and it really serves the story really well here. Unfortunately I leaned so much I started pushing. Did I come up with Opeli?

AE: The Log Lady Opeli? Yes.

VS: So yeah, I’m partly responsible. [Laughs]

AE: I’ll be honest, one of the things we loved in that story was Agent Cooper encountering himself from the future. If Cooper from the future is encountering himself in the past, what does time mean in this space? What that experience meant to Viren is the same. He is experiencing that dark magic dream  both as a young person who is first experimenting with dark magic and himself who is coming towards the end of his journey, and experience it again.

Both of those points of view, he experienced 1) as a young person seeing visions of the future self and now 2) he’s the older person, seeing the young person brought into this. It’s wonderful how they influence each other. We’ve had a lot of conversations about how that worked, why that worked, why it made sense and we’re proud of it. 

Justin Richmond: And I had coffee at the coffee shop they filmed at. 

AE: Did you have cherry pie?

JR: I did have the chocolate cherry pie!

AIPT: Viren’s vision quest is an exploration into his psyche, it’s one of the darkest moments of the season but it also served as a way to pull him out of the Claudia-Terry scenes because we got to see that relationship blossom.

JR: It was intentional that they were separated but we got more out of it than we initially thought. We were able to carry it out and there’s more stuff in there. We talked about it in season four, when he does dark magic again, he resets. He’s experiencing a lifetime of dark magic use in like, a second. 

AE: It also ratchets things up for Claudia. The 30 days are going by but look at this, ‘I’m losing him in front of my eyes and am becoming desperate to save him.’ That’s how I saw it.

VS: Like a lot of characters, she has to grow up faster than they necessarily like to. Unfortunately it’s part of life to lose your parents, she’s already lost him once.

AIPT: The Sol Regem and Prince Karim conversation was enlightening as much as it was powerful, to see this majestic dragon become apathetic and being taken down a peg.

JR: Maybe two pegs!

AE: He’s like late-life Marlon Brando or something, you know what I mean? His days of being this powerful force that affects the world… are somehow behind him. He’s not as relevant, not only that but whatever the traumas he experienced when he was the Sun King, the arch dragon who ruled everything. Clearly things haven’t worked out the way he wanted.

In a way, he’s sad, bitter, depressed and waiting to die. Here comes this guy who reminds him, No you were part of this glorious past, you symbolize something and you can symbolize it again. His initial response is what you saw, “You’re an idiot, get the hell out of here, kid!” But we’ll see where that goes in the coming seasons.

AIPT: It’s such a powerful image to see, especially when this is the dragon who was on The Dragon Prince poster. He’s just a shell of himself.

VS: We had one of the family dogs, who when he was ready to die, curled up like that. I remember talking to the animatics team, that’s what dogs do, I’m so sick, they hide in a corner.

AE: It’s heartbreaking!

AIPT: One line I loved from the season was when Soren says, “All the action you can handle – at the library.” [All laugh] Soren had some great moments throughout the season with his timing. He brought some levity in a darker season. He went from nearly killing his father, to thinking he was dead, and now dealing with his sister as an adversary. 

JR: I think he feels he has a place to belong now. His adopted family is solid, and he has people he can lean on so he can be himself so he’s not constantly judged. Even if they do think he’s stupid, they still love him for it. Anytime you can put Soren and Corvus together, it’s awesome.

AE: I will add though, to think about how he reacted to knowing his father is still alive in season four, and what Viren’s arc, and where Viren is going, might affect Soren in the future. Maybe Soren is having a lighter season now but he’s going to have darker questions to face soon.

AIPT: Kim’dael is one cool character. A lot of times when you have graphic novel spinoffs, they’re just that. But you bring a character who you introduced in the graphic novels and introduce her in such a cool way, that she has to be a big player in seasons six and seven, right?

JR: She’s awesome, we have plans for Kim’dael that go beyond the show.

AE: She complicates the story in a really important way. In the first three seasons, the narrative of the world is that humans use dark magic, primal magic is for elves and dragons, humans are naughty and bad because they do this. Kim’dael shows that there’s elves who have gone there. The way she does, the way that she does, is beyond primal magic. She’s found ways through dark magic to extend her primal moon powers.

It’s very evil how she is able to do what she does and extend her life, and use her powers that would normally only be used under the full moon, she can use anytime because she’s infused blood with the light of the full moon. That’s dark. We love Kim’Dael, but we love what she means about the world of Xadia, and the narrative that’s not been acknowledged. There’s darkness and complication across the Elven world as well.

VS: Kim’dael is also one of the few who can take down Queen Janai, though she did not have her blade.

JR: In a fair fight, I think it could be really close between those two, but the full Kim’dael story is really interesting.

AIPT: I noticed that there wasn’t any discussion as to what the debt Kim’dael needs to live under, which is explained in the comic. I was wondering if that would be left for people to read on their own or…

JR: Oh we have a story, it’s laid out, we just haven’t told it yet. There’s a very specific way that that all worked out.

AE: This dark villainous character who basically made a deal with the Empress of Sunfire Kingdom, but in the process of making that deal has a bond that can kill her. But she made that deal in exchange for the mercy she received.

AIPT: Let’s get to Scumport set, this fantastic little corner of Xadia that we haven’t seen before. We had loads of new characters, the return of Nyx (who I don’t know why the gang just doesn’t run the other way when they see her) and where the “Ocean” portion of season five opens up.

AE: Thankfully, our showrunner is Villads Spangsberg–this is true–a champion sailor and also comes from a long line of Danish sea captains. That’s why we hired him. [laughs]

JS: [Guffaws]

VS:  It’s true, it’s where I belong.

AE: You literally built a lot of Scumport yourself, didn’t you?

VS: I did. Like in one weekend. We had a vision of this mysterious pirate heaven. Devon Giehl, our head writer, and I had a lot of writing jam sessions about these background characters. It’s always great to add a new part of the universe. We try our best to fit as much as we can in nine episodes, which is not easy, but this is one of the fun ones.

AIPT: I particularly liked the kraken lock, and I know Deadwood is going to be an instant hit with the fans.

AE: We have so many of Finnegran’s nicknames for Deadwood. I know we used Lord of the Logs and some others but we had like 50 that we didn’t use. 

AIPT: You put me through the ringer with the Library fight. I got a feeling of dread coming on, like this was going to be the last we were going to see of General Amaya. But both her and Corvus make it through, thankfully. 

JS: I had a pretty clear idea of how that fight was going to go down on the ground floor. We knew we had Amaya, Rayla, Callum to do this triple fight. The important part wasn’t the fight though, it was to put Amaya and Rayla together. The vibe was like, ok nerds, go figure this out, the jocks will be down here [laughs] but it gave us this time for these two to talk. 

AE: Given the conflict they had in season one, which was this racist exchange that Amaya was racist against elves. 

AIPT: When we approach a scene like this in the writers room, that has history and context, is it circled in red to make sure certain things are discussed?

JR: I feel like from the very beginning, we have to put these two in the room because one was super racist against the other, and their viewpoint has changed. We have to figure out a way to make that happen.

AE: Right. It’s so Amaya that she says, look, I’m sorry. She makes this very sensitive apology, then now that this is out of the way, you mess with my nephew again, I’ll kill you. Not because you’re an elf, but because no one messes with my nephew. We started thinking about the earlier conversation, we thought about how Amaya has grown and changed.

How would she view Rayla, now understanding more deeply that she mistreated her in the past, that she treated her wrongly. But also how does she see Rayla knowing she’s probably exchanged letters with Callum, over the last two years and is heartbroken by her. The hardest part of writing those scenes is that there were only two of them. You could write a whole play between Amaya and Rayla. 

JR: Ra-maya: a one-act play.

AIPT: Can we get John Leguizamo to play them both? [Laughs] So I’m watching the screeners with my daughter who points out in the opening credits to 508, that it’s Callum, not Viren, turning to stone and Aaravos picking him up. 

AE: Hmmm. We had Callum in the credits in season four, but it’s similar, basically when Aaravos and temptation and dark magic are… 

JR: Near at hand.

AE: Yeah, she’s right to connect that. 

VS: Keep an eye on the openers.

AE: There are more openers coming.

AIPT: One thing I noticed that was different in season five, in a good way, was the free expression of love between characters. There were a lot of characters saying, “I love you.” to another character, or testing their love. Maybe I just watch too many things that are dark, but it’s noticeable. Was that something by design?

JR: I think it was more of many happy accidents than by design, although Devon would say, “Of course it’s by design!” but the world’s getting darker, and things are getting tenser, and sometimes people are freer with their emotions. We’re in a place where people are on screen that are in relationships. Oftentimes you had people in relationships but they were nowhere near each other. They didn’t have cell phones.

AE: There is something about our storytelling, where we have some characters who have advanced emotional maturity and communicate and are vulnerable. That’s just a part of our storytelling.

VS: It’s also one of those things that make it relatable and reflects real life. It’s not just slashing, darkness and horror. Something that I like about The Dragon Prince is that we play on the full piano, it plays a balance. Some episodes have more kisses than others but we try to balance it out and if there are too many kisses, when it becomes too much. 

AIPT: Zubeia gets corrupted, but is receiving treatment from the mushroom man.

JS: I think he’s still of Earth Blood Magic.That’s Mukho, the mushroom mage, named after writer, Neil Mukhopadhyay, who loves mushrooms. It’s fun being able to introduce more elves that don’t.                                                                             

AE: He’s like a world class mushroom expert, a mycologist.

AIPT: There’s a lot we could discuss about the finale, but if I could pick one to discuss, let’s talk about Miyana betraying Janai and getting the Sun Stone to Karim. That was such a gut punch, since you felt like you could have trusted her better.

AE: We are missing some scenes from season four, unfortunately cut for time, but we tried to tell the story as well as we could. But there’s some sense that Karim and Miyana kept their relationship secret, for whatever reason, but partially because if it ever became a conflict, it would cause Miyana to lose power – he understood the complexity.

When they initially talked about him challenging Janai and the moment where he thought she was going to give up, he thought if she didn’t follow through with the ritual the way she was supposed to, the six horns would understand the ancient law would turn on her. He believed that. In the original version of the story, he told Miyana that you can’t be the first. I don’t want to give away that you’re my, “on the side.” Someone else has to go first, then you can go.

So then, when we saw it play out, and no one turned, he said, “Miyana!” What does she do? Because she’s not supposed to be first. So instead what happens is, no one turns, she’s taken away and he’s banished. At the very least, we know he had this affair with her and she didn’t help him at that moment but she’s still loyal to him. The seeds were definitely planted for the betrayal. I mean, he has tears of relief that the person he loves, stuck by him.

That was his perspective. It wasn’t betrayal, it was the opposite. She was loyal to him. But it was also wonderful because he undergoes such a transformation from being a banished guy with nothing to by the end of the season, he has power and the most precious thing to Janai, because of Miyana. 

AIPT: Let’s end on slytherin steel, the spell that Callum performed once again to free his loved one. I feel it’s a major impactful moment when he dabbles in dark magic. Talk about ending the season on that note.

VS: Well, as we are currently working on season six, I can tell you that every time you do dark magic, you take one more step in a bad, bad direction. It takes a lot for you to come back.

AIPT: To that point, does that mean that there’s no saving Claudia?

VS: I’ll leave that up to everybody to make their theories. She believes in what she does is for love and for family. It’s like Miyana, who’s in love, but believes in Karim. If you have that passion, and you follow, you’ll do a lot. Season five, Claudia is under a lot of pressure, it’s not going to get any easier.

Catch up on all five seasons of The Dragon Prince on Netflix.